I recently had the pleasure of visiting with Bruce Gungle and talking about his running career and exploits in Death Valley at the Badwater 135-mile race. Bruce is a unique kind of runner in that he thrives on running and living in desert heat. The following profile and interview provides excellent insight into what it's like to manage your body in extreme temperatures and also details what drives the trail and ultra-runner to reach higher goals and limits.
PROFILE OF RUNNER:
A. Name, age, city and state, how long lived there?
Fred Flintstone, 52, Tucson, AZ, 1984-2011 = ... 27 yrs
B. Place of birth, where did you grow up, high school, college, military, other?
Danvers, Mass; Danvers, Mass; Danvers School for the High (as we called it); Drake University, Des Moines, IA, (BA), UNH (MA), UA (MFA, MS)
C. Other than running – hobbies, interests, pets, kids, current employment?
Following the Red Sox, collecting & listening to music, growing adeniums (rank amatuer compared to Gene, of course), beer, mountain biking, road biking, reading, film; 2 blood hounds, Bessie and Clyde; no kids; hydrologist with United States Geological Survey
D. Favorite distance to run or race on trail and on the road?
Probably the most comfortable distance is the half marathon, although you can’t beat the challenge of a 100 miler
E. Favorite race course or event?
I think the prettiest race I ever ran was my first 50, called Lost Boys, from the Anza Borego desert into the mountains near Julian, CA, outside of San Diego. It has not been held in years, unfortunately. I am also a big fan of running in Death Valley, although I wouldn’t think of all that time on pavement at Badwater as a real favorite of mine.
F. Favorite Tucson area trail to train, run, hike?
That changes over time. Bear Canyon loop is just a perfect run, though—the right amount of climb, great scenery (I never get tired of that view west into Sabino Basin just after you top out), and the perfect trail distance. I also have a nice loop on some obscure trails in the Tucson’s Mtns that I really enjoy these days starting from the Yetman Trailhead on de Oeste. I do love to get up on top of that old bald granite lightning rod down in the Santa Ritas, too.
G. Favorite vacation destination?
Don’t go on vacations that much. Went to Florida a couple of years ago; that was weird. I guess Australia is a favorite of mine, although I’ve only been there once.
H. Favorite post-race/run food, drink and activity, ie. hot tub, ice cold river soak, etc?
Generally I throw down a few Guinness (regular bottles) after a race—good carbs, low alcohol (only 4.2%), good hydration (according to a study financed by the beer industry).
I. Pet Peeves?
Vertigo.
J. Current book you are reading or favorite author?
East of Eden, John Steinbeck; The Last Enchantment (Merlin & Arthurian legend series), Mary Stewart; Sea of Glory: America’s Voyage of Discovery, The U.S. Exploring Expeditions, 1838-1842, Nathaniel Philbrick. I also have A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, James Joyce, and The Echoing Green – The untold story of Bobby Thomson, Ralph Branca and the Shot Heard ‘Round the World, Joshua Prager, on the back burner, 2/3’s read, eventually to be completed....
K. Favorite quote or saying to live by?
Clyde! Knock off the barking!
L. Person you look up to, emulate, hero?
My wife, Carolyn Campbell. She works harder and accomplishes more for wild lands conservation, open space, and our community than anyone. She’s the reason a mountain lion can still make its way from the Sierrita Mtns to the Tucson Mtns to the Tortolita Mtns to the Catalina Mtns, and that’s important stuff to retain genetic diversity and thus resilience in species. If you stop to think about it for a second, the reason we all love to run trails is because trails run through the wild lands; doing what we can to support conservation should be a no brainer for trail runners.
INTERVIEW QUESTIONS:
Trail Aficionado (TA): Thanks for taking the time to meet with me. I had a busy month with work and this is the first opportunity I’ve had to get together with anyone for an interview.
Bruce: No problem man. I’ve been looking forward to it.
TA: Let’s start with your early days. I see that you went to college at Drake University. I’ve always known them to have a heck of track program.
Bruce: I was a high jumper. I high jumped in high school, too. I didn’t like to run.
TA: So you weren’t into the running part of track, mostly field events?
Bruce: Yeah, they would throw me in the quarter or the mile but I hated it. That oxygen debt really hurts. I think they thought it was funny. I ran cross country in my freshman year of high school and then played soccer the rest of the years.
TA: Cross country for one year? I started cross country in my sophomore year and discovered that the sport was made for masochists. So I kept going through my junior and senior years.
Bruce: Yeah, well, it didn’t capture me at that point. The first day of cross country practice we had a two-a-day workout planned. That morning we ran 3-4 miles. Later that day before the second workout, I was hanging out at the football practice talking to some girls and was dying of thirst. I went down to the local store and bought a big plastic jug of Coca-Cola. I drank the whole thing and started to feel lousy so I got on my bike to go home and get some lunch. It’s a four mile ride home and just as I got onto my yard past the drive I leaned over my handlebars and puked brown Coca-Cola like a faucet…or a shower head. I skipped the afternoon run and stayed home and took a nap.
TA: Funny story. Alright then, let’s get to the real point. What made you decide it was a good idea to run 135-miles in Death Valley at Badwater three different times?
Bruce: Let me start with this. My entire life I’ve been around runners. I ran sporadically for fitness over the years. I taught school in Japan from 1988-90. We had a P.E. teacher who challenged the other teachers with a 100K running goal for the the last couple months of the semester. We tracked our own progress. The people that didn’t make the goal had to buy breakfast for those that did. That got me into it. I made a chart with blocks and used colors to fill in each day’s number of kilometers. If we were going out at night but I realized I still had half an hour or so, I would shoot out the door and knock out another 2K. I kept chipping away until by the end I had amassed about 250K.
TA: What was the longest distance you ran at one time during that period?
Bruce: I eventually ran 20 miles at one time. I got a hold of a Roadrunner catalogue and ordered running clothes and shoes since there was nothing in Japan that fit me. So I had the right gear. One day I was on the outskirts of Nagoya, the third largest city in Japan; there were hills and small mountains nearby. It was overcast and drizzly—perfect conditions for running. I was finishing up at 7 minutes mile pace and I couldn’t believe it. I felt so good I thought I could run forever. That was it, it threw the switch; I couldn’t believe how much I loved to run.
TA: You did this without any goals in mind like a marathon?
Bruce: A marathon still seemed monumental even though it was only 6 more miles than I’d already done. A little while later I tweaked something in my knee dancing at a ska concert and couldn’t run for awhile. I got back from Japan in the summer of ’90. I started playing softball and while running after a ball in the outfield my knee locked up but I shook it loose. I went in to see the doctor and he diagnosed me with torn cartilage. He said I would need knee surgery at some point. Later that day the knee locked permanently so I went in and had meniscus surgery. After that my knee hurt a lot. For years after that I couldn’t get my long runs up over 10 miles. Eventually I got the idea I wanted to run a half-marathon and at the same time discovered Glucosamine-Chondroitin.
TA: I started using Glucosamine-Chondroitin myself in the mid-‘90s and it saved me.
TA: Had you run long distance on the trails yet?
Bruce: I don’t think so. I was a huge hiker so I knew about the trails. I had back-packed to Mica Mountain and Manning Camp a few times where a friend of mine from ran the fire crew. I had hiked all over the Catalinas and the Tucson Mountains, too. I always thought it would be cool to run from my house to the Yetman trail, which wasn’t the Yetman trail at the time. To run from my place to the stone house and back seemed so far. My first Tucson Trail Runners run was Cowhead Saddle behind Gene Joseph. I knew of Gene and after everything I had heard of him I thought he was a god. I was really psyched I could keep up with him on the ascent. We got to the saddle then headed back down, and Gene took off over the rocky decent like a mountain goat. I managed to keep up for a mile or two, but then blew up. Running that hard on those rocks destroyed my ankles. Even though I didn’t sprain anything, I couldn’t run for two weeks.
TA: Tell the story of how you got into Badwater in 2004?
We eventually moved on to the finish line at Mt. Whitney Portals. Nobody knew us but after awhile we were helping out, holding the tape for finishers and stuff. I inquired about helping out with the race the next year and was pointed in the direction of Chris Kostman. I e-mailed him afterwards, before the 2002 race, and got on the race staff. I was part of the race staff in 2002 and 2003.
TA: So what about the normal 100-mile qualifying race?
Bruce: I did the 24-hour run in Sierra Vista. First I ran Crown King 50K in March. Then I ran Lost Boys 50-mile outside San Diego in May. In September I ran 107 miles on a flat half-mile course around a strip mall in Sierra Vista for an official 100-miler. My IT band went at mile 85, so I walked in—well, around, and around—the last 22 miles. That got me into Badwater. The next spring I did Crown King 50K again and the Bishop High Sierra 50-mile in May. Then I did Badwater in July of 2004.
TA: It looks like you got trained up properly, had a good crew…I read your race report -
Trials and Travails of Team Coonhound and the 2004 Badwater Ultramarathon, or, What I Did on My Summer Vacation
Very detailed and informative.Bruce: That was the goal to which I was moving my whole ultra-running career—Badwater—so I was thinking about it all of the time. As a matter of fact I developed my own ultra distance training run from Gates Pass to Reddington Pass…it’s exactly a 50K. I did it twice, maybe 3 times. Actually, that was my very first ultra distance run. It seemed so obvious but I think I’m the only one who has ever done it. It’s basically Speedway all the way across then a mile north to Reddington Road. I advertised it to other runners and Chris Fall came out for part of it. Carolyn was my support crew the first time but completely mistimed when and where I would be. She finally caught up to me around mile 22. I think the Southern Arizona Roadrunners might have it down on the record books, somewhere around 6 hours.
Carolyn: [smiles, has a swig of beer and burps]
TA: Very interesting. You should bring that run back. So what changes did you make from your 2004 finish to the 2006 (race report) and 2008 finishes?
TA: That leaves like 35 miles in 17 hours…that’s got to suck?
Bruce: Yeah, and it was that stretch across Owens Valley. It was so mentally draining fighting the fatigue and trying to stay awake for two straight days without sleeping.
TA: That leads to a question I’ve wanted to ask. What is it like staying awake two straight nights? Is there anything different the second night? Is there a trick to this?
Bruce: Yeah, get a lot of sleep two days before. That’s where I went wrong in ’08. I only got 6 hours of sleep each of the two nights before the race. The second night of not sleeping you’re just crazy.
TA: Did you ever hallucinate?
Bruce: At dusk of the second day in ’08 I did. The tiny shadows around the gravel in the chip seal on the pavement kept arranging themselves into letters of the alphabet, capital and lowercase. The whole road was covered in them. I knew it was in my mind and it wasn’t real but I couldn’t get it to stop. The second thing that was happening at the same time was when coming into Lone Pine and you look up into the Alabama Hills below the Sierra Nevada there is a pastoral area of trees at the base of the hills. Somehow I was seeing a highway overpass in the hills and trees and I wanted to walk under it and get it behind me.
Another thing was coming into Lone Pine. There was a western movie hall of fame with neon signs that said Hall of Fame but I kept reading it as LPs and CD Music For Sale. I kept telling my crew that we should stop in and buy some music and they didn’t know what the hell I was talking about.
TA: Any tricks you used to stay awake?
Bruce: The first year I slept for 6 minutes, twice. The second year I took two 20 minute naps and the third year I actually fell asleep on a toilet in our hotel coming through Lone Pine. My crew had to pound on the door after a while to wake me up. Then I took a half hour nap in our van outside of Lone Pine, woke up, got out of the van, and was all dizzy so curled up in the dirt and slept some more. I now think I was actually having my first vertigo episode which has become something of a problem for me. I was using caffeine, a couple of Red Bulls. I couldn’t believe that shit was legal. I felt totally normal again, unbelievable! I typically go into these races caffeine free for a month and then it works better.
TA: Come to think of it, you never had the benefit of a second sunrise. All of your times had you finishing in the middle of the night. A second sunrise might have helped but it would have jeopardized being awarded the buckle for 48 hours.
Bruce: Yeah, the cutoff for the buckle was 48 hours but you had 60 hours to actually finish. This year (2011) is the first year the finish cutoff was 48 hours.
TA: Badwater is run during the hottest time of the year. I hear that the rubber on shoes melt. What does it feel like on your skin, body, organs, etc. and how do you deal with that kind of heat for hours and hours?
Bruce: Man, that's just a myth. I've been to Badwater 9 times either as a runner, a race official, or a spectator and I've never once seen or even heard of anyone's shoes melting. On the other hand, I can tell you that it is noticeably cooler on your feet if you run on the white line rather than the pavement. One year when I was working the race the temperatures out on the course got up to 135 F and I was driving the section that crosses Death Valley one side to the other, just before the dunes by Stovepipe Wells. In the afternoon there's almost always an up-valley wind and this day was no exception. I like to turn off the A/C when I'm in Death Valley and just deal with it, so I had my window rolled down and I remember how the wind was so hot on my arm that it burned, like I was pressing it against a piece of hot metal or something.
TA: So, a little hotter than the typical Tucson day in June?
Bruce: Yeah, you might say that. Dealing with the heat as a runner isn't as hard as people think. I think the distance is what makes this race so hard, really. I do three things, basically, to deal with the heat; first I heat acclimate in advance of the race so my body can dump heat efficiently and keep the core temp down; then I wear a long sleeve cotton shirt and keep it soaked with water so there's plenty of evaporative cooling. During the occasional humid year this doesn't work so well and those are the toughest if it's hot, too. Finally, I try to go pretty slow and steady, and walk the biggest uphills and when I feel like I might be overheating. Nearly everyone, even the winners, have rough spots in Death Valley in hot years. In 2006 we hit 132 F on the car thermometer that first afternoon. That's on the pavement, a couple of feet above ground, not at the National Weather Service site at Furnace Creek which is grassy and 6 feet above the ground, so you won't see it in the weather records or anything. But that was what we were dealing with out on the course. Anyway, that was the closest I ever came to puking in a race, that afternoon. There were some rough spots, and my crew was still pretty enthusiastic at that point and were trying to force feed me gu and my stomach was having none of it, but I managed to fight it off and convince my crew to back off and wait a couple of miles before making my eat more of that crap.
TA: Did you develop any physical problems from the extreme heat and how did you overcome them?
Bruce: No, not really. Wait, I take that back. The first year, 2004, the bottoms of both feet became one big blister. The skin basically separated from the flesh. I have pretty high arches, so actually it was two big blisters, one about 2 or 3 inches in diameter under the front of the foot and one under the heal. That was when I figured out why people who run Badwater are all jacked up about taping their feet. I'd never once had a blister from running, so I thought I was immune to blisters going into the race. Man, was I wrong.
TA: So the next time you taped your feet? Did that help?
Bruce: In 2006, the second time I ran Badwater, all the runners received free blister care kits from Zombie Runner and that was fortunate because we really didn't know what we were doing in that department. I still wasn't entirely convinced it would make that big of a difference. My friend Ron, from Reno, who was the guy who spectated with me in 2001, took over the foot-care part of the race and he figured it out pretty fast. We still didn't tape enough. And then I ran 13 miles down the back of Townes Pass without the in-sole in my left shoe.
TA: What? You didn't do that on purpose?
Bruce: No, definitely not. And it trashed my foot which was in pretty good shape before that. We had 2 or 3 pairs of shoes that we were rotating, and we were keeping the spares in the ice chest as a way to reduce the heat on my feet to help fight off the blistering. It was the middle of the night when we got to the top of Townes Pass, where you leave Death Valley, and I don't know why I decided to swap shoes then because it wasn't hot any more at all. Anyway, somewhere in the dark the insole didn't get into one of the new shoes and off I went, running downhill 3,800 feet in 13 miles, the whole way with my foot swimming around inside a raw shoe. It totally chewed up my foot. I was so bummed out I was getting blisters again and I thought it was just from the downhill. We all had a good laugh when we took the shoe off to tape up the blisters. Anyway, in 2008 we taped things up proper--totally covered the surface of both feet--and I must have had a couple of little blisters but nothing special; taping works.
TA: But that's it? No other heat related health problems? Did you ever piss blood or any of that good stuff?
Bruce: No, not me. I think living in Tucson really helps to deal with the heat, even though it's like 20 degrees hotter in Death Valley. It's also only the first day of the race, the first 42 miles, that you're on the floor of Death Valley. It's not the whole time.
TA: True. But that's got to be a long day. You mentioned you had 132 degrees in 2006. Was that the hottest you experienced?
Bruce: Yeah, as a runner. It was pretty impressive. That was in 2006. In 2004 we were consistently around 122, 123 for an hour or so during that first afternoon, and then this gust of wind came up and the temperature shot up to something like 127 for a minute or two. Must have swept a pocket of heat off the floor or the pavement and blown it at us. At the end of the day, as we started the climb up Townes Pass from Stovepipe, one of my crew guys said to Carolyn, "Man, it's really nice out now; it's so cool." and then they looked at the car thermometer and it was something like 117 degrees. That was pretty funny.
TA: Badwater is run during the hottest time of the year. I hear that the rubber on shoes melt. What does it feel like on your skin, body, organs, etc. and how do you deal with that kind of heat for hours and hours?
Bruce: Man, that's just a myth. I've been to Badwater 9 times either as a runner, a race official, or a spectator and I've never once seen or even heard of anyone's shoes melting. On the other hand, I can tell you that it is noticeably cooler on your feet if you run on the white line rather than the pavement. One year when I was working the race the temperatures out on the course got up to 135 F and I was driving the section that crosses Death Valley one side to the other, just before the dunes by Stovepipe Wells. In the afternoon there's almost always an up-valley wind and this day was no exception. I like to turn off the A/C when I'm in Death Valley and just deal with it, so I had my window rolled down and I remember how the wind was so hot on my arm that it burned, like I was pressing it against a piece of hot metal or something.
TA: So, a little hotter than the typical Tucson day in June?
Bruce: Yeah, you might say that. Dealing with the heat as a runner isn't as hard as people think. I think the distance is what makes this race so hard, really. I do three things, basically, to deal with the heat; first I heat acclimate in advance of the race so my body can dump heat efficiently and keep the core temp down; then I wear a long sleeve cotton shirt and keep it soaked with water so there's plenty of evaporative cooling. During the occasional humid year this doesn't work so well and those are the toughest if it's hot, too. Finally, I try to go pretty slow and steady, and walk the biggest uphills and when I feel like I might be overheating. Nearly everyone, even the winners, have rough spots in Death Valley in hot years. In 2006 we hit 132 F on the car thermometer that first afternoon. That's on the pavement, a couple of feet above ground, not at the National Weather Service site at Furnace Creek which is grassy and 6 feet above the ground, so you won't see it in the weather records or anything. But that was what we were dealing with out on the course. Anyway, that was the closest I ever came to puking in a race, that afternoon. There were some rough spots, and my crew was still pretty enthusiastic at that point and were trying to force feed me gu and my stomach was having none of it, but I managed to fight it off and convince my crew to back off and wait a couple of miles before making my eat more of that crap.
TA: Did you develop any physical problems from the extreme heat and how did you overcome them?
Bruce: No, not really. Wait, I take that back. The first year, 2004, the bottoms of both feet became one big blister. The skin basically separated from the flesh. I have pretty high arches, so actually it was two big blisters, one about 2 or 3 inches in diameter under the front of the foot and one under the heal. That was when I figured out why people who run Badwater are all jacked up about taping their feet. I'd never once had a blister from running, so I thought I was immune to blisters going into the race. Man, was I wrong.
TA: So the next time you taped your feet? Did that help?
Bruce: In 2006, the second time I ran Badwater, all the runners received free blister care kits from Zombie Runner and that was fortunate because we really didn't know what we were doing in that department. I still wasn't entirely convinced it would make that big of a difference. My friend Ron, from Reno, who was the guy who spectated with me in 2001, took over the foot-care part of the race and he figured it out pretty fast. We still didn't tape enough. And then I ran 13 miles down the back of Townes Pass without the in-sole in my left shoe.
TA: What? You didn't do that on purpose?
Bruce: No, definitely not. And it trashed my foot which was in pretty good shape before that. We had 2 or 3 pairs of shoes that we were rotating, and we were keeping the spares in the ice chest as a way to reduce the heat on my feet to help fight off the blistering. It was the middle of the night when we got to the top of Townes Pass, where you leave Death Valley, and I don't know why I decided to swap shoes then because it wasn't hot any more at all. Anyway, somewhere in the dark the insole didn't get into one of the new shoes and off I went, running downhill 3,800 feet in 13 miles, the whole way with my foot swimming around inside a raw shoe. It totally chewed up my foot. I was so bummed out I was getting blisters again and I thought it was just from the downhill. We all had a good laugh when we took the shoe off to tape up the blisters. Anyway, in 2008 we taped things up proper--totally covered the surface of both feet--and I must have had a couple of little blisters but nothing special; taping works.
TA: But that's it? No other heat related health problems? Did you ever piss blood or any of that good stuff?
Bruce: No, not me. I think living in Tucson really helps to deal with the heat, even though it's like 20 degrees hotter in Death Valley. It's also only the first day of the race, the first 42 miles, that you're on the floor of Death Valley. It's not the whole time.
TA: True. But that's got to be a long day. You mentioned you had 132 degrees in 2006. Was that the hottest you experienced?
Bruce: Yeah, as a runner. It was pretty impressive. That was in 2006. In 2004 we were consistently around 122, 123 for an hour or so during that first afternoon, and then this gust of wind came up and the temperature shot up to something like 127 for a minute or two. Must have swept a pocket of heat off the floor or the pavement and blown it at us. At the end of the day, as we started the climb up Townes Pass from Stovepipe, one of my crew guys said to Carolyn, "Man, it's really nice out now; it's so cool." and then they looked at the car thermometer and it was something like 117 degrees. That was pretty funny.
TA: Moving on from Badwater, what kind of goals do you have for the future?
Bruce: Well, it might be time to play the violins. I’ve got this ear problem that really takes the wind out of my sails; it’s called Meniere’s disease. It makes me feel kind of lousy a lot of the time and I periodically get vertigo events, which I can deal with now that I know what they are, but they’re a real pain in the ass and I feel hungover for a day or two afterward. It really makes it hard to get fired up about doing anything because you don’t know when you’re going to have another round of feeling lousy and possibly get another shot of vertigo.
TA: So recreational trail running and hiking is probably the limit?
Bruce: Maybe, maybe not. It is for now. Noise is a problem, and you may not realize this, but pounding your feet on the ground for hours on end is noisey. An ear plug can help some. It’s a different era for me. I still really enjoy the mountain bike. I had one of my best rides the other day on the Sweetwater Loop.
TA: If you couldn’t run anymore then you would cycle?
Bruce: Well yeah, but there is the balance thing. A year ago I rode 384 miles (Bruce's race summary) of the Furnace Creek 508 near Death Valley. As a matter of fact Joe Plassman and I are crewing a friend of his at this year’s race. And also, this summer I did the 129 mile Death Ride in the Sierra Nevada, which is a great event.
TA: That’s admirable. What advice can you give to new trail runners?
Bruce: The whole reason we run trails is because it’s better than running on the road and that’s because you’re out in the wilderness…the variety of plant and animal species and all that, the natural world. You need to remember that’s why you’re out there. You’re not out there to do that loop faster than anyone has done it before. You’re out there because that place is important to you.
TA: I didn’t used to do that, even though I thought I was doing it. I knew the benefit of getting off of the pavement and strengthening the leg muscles. I was missing a lot until I got older and slower and purposely took the time to look at my surroundings. I gained a renewed idea about what I was doing out there. Stuff that used to whiz by, now I’m stopping and taking pictures. Great answer!
Bruce: Thanks.
TA: On the flipside, what is the best advice that you received from more veteran runners?
Bruce: How about the age old advice of “Start off slow and then slow down.” I never do that though—start off slow—I always pay. You should do negative splits but I don’t know that I’ve ever done that in my entire life. I can’t do it but I think it’s really good advice. If anyone else can do it, then do it.
TA: I don’t think I ever have either but it’s always something I think about. Well, let’s get to the last question. What is the meaning of life?
Bruce: Joe Dana and I agree 100%. When you strip it down, what are we doing here? It’s all about experience. You know, I’ve moved around quite a bit. I grew up in Massachusetts and went to college in Iowa and then I lived in New Hampshire. Then I was in Alabama, Puerto Rico, Kenya, and England; moved to Arizona and spent a lot of time in Japan. When I go back to Danvers, Mass. where I grew up I see people that have never left. I don’t think what I’ve done is better or worse than them; it’s just a completely different experience. Neither of us will know what it’s like to live life like the other person has. I’ll never know what it’s like to stay in one place my entire life and know that place and all the people there inside and out. A heroin addict has experiences I’ll never have…which I think is fortunate, but it’s still a set of experiences I’ll never know, and vice-versa for the addict. At the end of the day it’s about experiences. I don’t think you can judge a life better or worse because of what a person has or has not done. Each life is just simply different.
TA: I like that too, but do you think there is a reason for those experiences? Do you take them anywhere or do anything with them after you leave?
Bruce: We have our individual identities and are, essentially, alone in this world. We will never understand what life is from the other person’s perspective because we’re not inside each other’s bodies looking out. Nevertheless, we are all part of a species and I think our “purpose” here adds up to continuing the species, kind of obviously, I suppose. I think that’s what every species is after. Our ultimate goal is to ensure that the species continues long after we’re gone.
TA: Kind of a collective unconscious…cool. Excellent! That was a good discussion. Thanks for your time and the beverages and good luck helping at Furnace Creek.
Bruce: No problem man. Have fun on your trip to Kauai.
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